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Mike ONeill
Tomato Guru

South Africa
103 Posts

Posted - Aug 01 2011 :  12:46:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have been an ardent user of VAX for 6 years now , being a self confressed "tool junkie" so I occasionally tend to see what the opposition has , so I was looking at R# 6 and Just Code .

While very similar , they both sport a Decompiler built in and the ability to debug through 3rd party libraries incuding native.NET seamlessly.

Is ther any plan for VAX to do the same .

R#6 is a big upgrade with a lot of extra language features and they seem to have overcome some of their sluggishness in VS , something they were crticiised heavily for .

I dearly love VAX , and will remain a solid user but I do fear that you are in danger of getting left behing in the C# & VB arena's. Just things like the number of refactorings , ease of keyboard shortcuts . Not to mention the 2 completely missed areas of Code Analysis and Unit Testing that R# Sports.

If you do a Feature for Feature comparison , the opposition has a lot to offer , and unless you are a C++ developer (which is not covered anywhere else in these products) you are likely to be tempted by the Bright & Flashing lights of upgraded products .

Just a thought

Mike

feline
Whole Tomato Software

United Kingdom
17567 Posts

Posted - Aug 01 2011 :  12:38:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
These are good thoughts, and thank you for raising these points. Currently we are still primarily a C++ company and tool, which is reflected in the resources available for C# and VB.NET.

We do need to look around, and see what other people are doing, and make sure we are providing enough value for our users, in which ever languages they are working in.

Time to bring this up again internally, thank you

Turning to one specific point though, the ease of keyboard shortcuts, how do you feel VA can make its keyboard shortcuts easier?

We expose quite a few commands in the IDE keyboard settings, so you can assign your own keyboard shortcuts, to make things easier. Most of the really simple keyboard shortcuts are already taken by the IDE, so we have to either replace existing keyboard mappings, or use less obvious keyboard shortcuts by default.

zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness

Edited by - feline on Aug 01 2011 12:41:21 PM
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Mike ONeill
Tomato Guru

South Africa
103 Posts

Posted - Aug 02 2011 :  01:22:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I recently played with setting up the short cut keys with quite a degree of success . I tried to prefix everything logically eg Reafactor = Ctr R -> CTR R + M = Extract a Method , and you're right eventually you get a clash with VS std ones

For me , I rarely use the VS std ones excepty Ctr K + D to force a reformat so the clash wasn't an issue.

Again comparing to R#, they bring all their shortcuts "out" by default. Vax has most of the same ones but only a few are defined in the documentation so you do have to the exercise of setting them up . A suggestion may be to default as many as possible , and hang the clashes !

One other issue I found was that when I re set the R# IDEA key settings it trashed the VAX settings to some extent , so its not too easy to switch on and off at will.

At least with both VAX & R# you can switch on and off to use whichever you want . Coderush and Just Code don't give that option so you have to uninstall to stop em , not all helpful.

I find also if its of interest that VAX and R# play well together , and I some times have them both in play , I like VA Outline look and feel ob=ver R# and the Hovering Class Browser is not covered by R#. You have to wat dual parsing and performance of course

Hope this helps

Mike
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feline
Whole Tomato Software

United Kingdom
17567 Posts

Posted - Aug 02 2011 :  11:55:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The default keyboard shortcuts are listed here:

http://www.wholetomato.com/products/features/shortcut.asp

I started from the home page of our website and found this page quite quickly and easily, but I had a good idea of what I was looking for. If you had tried to look for the default keyboard shortcuts, where would you have looked?

From a support point of view, changing any default behaviour of the IDE is unhelpful, since you can be sure there are quite a few users who use any given feature or keyboard mapping, no matter how "obscure" But we also have to help the majority of our users.

We do try to make sure VA remains compatible with other tools, R# included, so it is good to hear that this is working well for you

zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
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Mike ONeill
Tomato Guru

South Africa
103 Posts

Posted - Aug 03 2011 :  12:47:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I navigated much the same route , it was not difficult. I think its typical of users of all software , you tend to use what you use and every now and then the light dawns -- it does that eh ?

I remember back when I first started with VAX I "discovered" Acronyms months down the line-- I look back and wonder how I managed. Maybe help file reading should be obligatory !!

Cheers

Mike
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feline
Whole Tomato Software

United Kingdom
17567 Posts

Posted - Aug 03 2011 :  10:10:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is where VA's tip of the day came from. Out of interest, did you read all of the tips before turning this off?

No one ever mentions it, so we don't know how much use it is. As for reading the manual, this is normally very helpful, for any complex tool, and also one of the last things most people do

zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
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rjollos
New Member

USA
3 Posts

Posted - Aug 03 2011 :  3:22:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by feline

This is where VA's tip of the day came from. Out of interest, did you read all of the tips before turning this off?



I hope you don't mind me jumping in here on a related note ...

I eventually turned off the "tip of the day" because I get prompted every time I start VS, and I start VS dozens of times per day. If I was only prompted once per day, I would leave it on forever or for quite a long time at least. I found it useful to be continually reminded of features as I become more familiar with the tool.
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feline
Whole Tomato Software

United Kingdom
17567 Posts

Posted - Aug 04 2011 :  10:21:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is a very good point rjollos, thank you for bring this up. I have put in a feature request for this:

case=59154

It is always good to get another perspective on how VA works, and how to make it better

zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
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sean
Whole Tomato Software

USA
2817 Posts

Posted - May 23 2014 :  2:55:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
case=59154 is fixed in build 2036.
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